‘Grey’s Anatomy’ Boss on More Ellen Pompeo and Pushing Boundaries in Season 21
Meg Marinis got hired on Grey’s Anatomy as her first job out of college.
Already a hit for ABC, the medical drama starring Ellen Pompeo as a wide-eyed surgical intern at the fictional Seattle Grace Hospital was in its second season, right in the middle of the Denny Duquette storyline, Marinis recalls (a now-iconic show arc between Katherine Heigl and Jeffrey Dean Morgan).
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Marinis, who had already been tuning into the drama weekly on Thursday nights, interviewed to be the second assistant to creator Shonda Rhimes. She didn’t get that job. But they were creating a new position, a writer’s PA, and she got that one instead. “I freaked out because I really liked the show, but I didn’t have any idea what it would become,” she tells The Hollywood Reporter. “A decade ago, I didn’t think I would still be here!”
Not only is Marinis still at Grey’s Anatomy, but she’s now leading the show that remains primetime TV’s longest-running medical drama as it returns with season 21. Marinis took over as showrunner with season 20 after taking the torch from Krista Vernoff, but that milestone season was delayed and then shortened (to only 10 episodes) due to Hollywood’s dual strikes of 2023. “We had fewer episodes than series regulars,” Marinis recalls, noting the sprawling ensemble cast. “I felt like I didn’t champion everyone that worked here as much as I could and couldn’t give them the full real estate for them to do their best work.”
With season 21, Marinis and Grey’s return big with an 18-episode season and more Pompeo, who will appear onscreen for more episodes than she has since scaling her role back in season 19. (She has remained the voiceover narrator for every episode.) “We’re an open-door policy with her,” she says. “It is nice to have her for more than we had her for last season.”
Below, Marinis dives deep into her twisty plans ahead following a premiere episode that heavily focused on Meredith (Pompeo), while also unpacking exciting cast returns (hello, Jesse Williams and Jason George!), and looking ahead to cast departures (Midori Francis and Jake Borelli are both exiting this season) and the arcs she has in store: “I’ll push whatever boundaries they’ll let me.”
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You took over as showrunner for season 20, which was a milestone season that leaned into nostalgia but was also impacted by the dual Hollywood strikes. Now, here you are with 18 episodes for season 21. What were some takeaways from season 20 that you brought to this full season as the boss?
There were a lot of stories that were pitched last year in the writers room that we didn’t get to use, so we went into this season really excited. We felt like we had a full canvas now to tell the stories that we wanted to. I had felt a little disappointed that I wasn’t able to tell full, rich character arcs for everybody. Because we had fewer episodes than series regulars, I felt like I did a disservice to the cast, and we had to pair a lot of writers up because we have a large writing staff. I felt like I didn’t champion everyone that worked here as much as I could and couldn’t give them the full real estate for them to do their best work. So now I feel like, “OK, we have 18 episodes. Everyone gets a shot at everything.”
I grew up with this crew. Seeing them get only 10 episodes of work after 150 or however many days of not working, I felt bad for everyone. So I was like, “OK, we came back earlier — a week earlier than we normally did — in July, and we have more episodes.” I pushed us to come back earlier so we could make airdates so we could keep in line with the rest of the Thursday night lineup. Hopefully, this will be the year where people feel normalcy.
You are airing later on ABC, in the 10 p.m. timeslot. Does that mean you will have more risqué storylines?
This is our first year at 10 p.m. I mean, I’ll push whatever boundaries they’ll let me push. But I’ll say, the show will still be the show. If we can get a few more risqué subject matters or steamy scenes, we’ll do it. But I won’t do it just for the sake of a time slot. We’re Grey’s Anatomy, people will find us wherever we are.
The premiere picks up right where the finale left off, with Catherine Fox (Debbie Allen) firing many of the show’s top doctors over Meredith and Amelia’s (Caterina Scorsone) groundbreaking Alzheimer’s research. What is the vibe this season?
With the first half of the season, we’re really building back from where we left everyone at the end of season 20 — particularly with people’s jobs. A lot of people’s jobs are on the line. How do we get those jobs back? Can we get them back? And it’s easier for some than others. We are really paying off this standoff between Catherine and Meredith, and with Catherine and Bailey [Chandra Wilson, whose character was also fired]. Catherine has become this villain that we’ve learned to love, and we’re kind of flipping the story on her a little bit this season. She’ll still be that villain but with a different flavor. We’ll see a little vulnerability this year, and how do our characters react to the villain who’s vulnerable?
What was it like filming that slap between Chandra Wilson and Debbie Allen?
Everyone asks that! (Laughs) It was exhilarating and terrifying! Debbie [Allen] was like, “Slap me!” she was ready to do it. Debbie Allen is so game for anything. She knew it would be in the promo the second that we filmed it. We faked it with some movie magic. There was contact but very soft contact. Even the soft contact, Chandra — being Chandra Wilson — was like, “Are you OK?!” When you pair it with all the interns’ shocked faces and a little bit of sound effect, it creates that moment. But I think we’ve all had that dream where you tell the person all the things you want to say that you would never dare say in reality, and I thought, “You know what? Everyone can identify with this moment.”
I want to ask you about Ellen Pompeo’s onscreen role this season. After seeing the premiere, her storyline plays a big part and clearly will continue on. Going into the season, it was confirmed she would appear in seven episodes with the possibility of more, since she wrapped her Hulu series. Will there be more episodes to those seven?
I don’t think we have a confirmed number right now, and we don’t typically do it all in one run. But I will say, her story does continue at the beginning of this season. With Ellen, we’re an open-door policy. When we can have Ellen on set and in the episodes, we love to have her. She’s always present in the show, even if she’s not in it in it. She has voiceover still, and we talk about her character all the time. She and I have a great relationship and work really well with one another. And she and Debbie, I could write scenes for them all day long. So if I could write multiple episodes of Meredith and Catherine going head-to-head, I absolutely would. But I do want to respect her decision to take a reduced role in these few seasons. But it is nice to have her for more than we had her for last season.
The premiere scenes with Meredith and Catherine felt almost like watching a stage play.
They are such powerful characters who are so much more alike than anyone thinks. I’m a huge fan of the Meredith-Ellis [Kate Burton] relationship, and Ellis isn’t around, but when you have that tumultuous relationship with your mother, you bring that into every other relationship you have with another older female. I love diving into the history of the show and diving into Meredith’s history with mothers and mentor figures. Clearly, I love writing for her and Bailey as well.
There is scheduling involved when you talk about what Ellen is going to come and do this season. But when you have Meredith’s storyline in mind to discuss, do you pitch it to her in chunks? As showrunner, how do you navigate those conversations?
It’s conversations with her and with the studio as well. It’s easier for her schedule when we do things in chunks, and typically on Grey’s Anatomy, we tell story arcs. We’ll do a recurring patient for three episodes here; and then that person will go away. It’s nice to get fans invested when you do storylines in two- or three-episode arcs. And we always have those one-off storylines, but especially because the show is viewed differently now, you can tell stories any way you want. You can tell stories where you have to watch the next one immediately on streaming, or where you have to have someone wait a week. It’s stressful now, but it’s also fun because there are so many different ways you can pull off a narrative.
Much of the cast is splintered when the season opens, and the interns are the main storyline back at the hospital. When you introduced these interns back in season 19 as series regulars, it was a callback to the early days of the show and was also looked at as being a test of sorts, to see if the show could evolve as Ellen scaled back. Now that you are here, and they are starring in the season 21 premiere, how would you say that test went? If Ellen needed to scale back again or do even less, do you think you’ve extended the longevity of the show?
I do, especially because I consider these as Meredith’s interns. In season 19, these were the “second chance” interns she brought in. I do feel like they all have a little Meredith Grey fight in them. They are a little bit like Meredith, where they often break the rules and are often unapologetic about it. Because nothing is more fun than watching interns break the rules and seeing what the consequences are — especially when Bailey is their residency director.
I don’t know if I would see it as a test, but I do feel like these characters have become successful in becoming a huge fixture of the show. We’ve had them develop relationships with our other attendings that help bring out things in our attendings. We show the interns in different relationships. We’ve started out something amazing with Blue [Harry Shum Jr.]; Simone’s [Alexis Floyd] relationship with Lucas [Niko Terho]; Simone’s relationship with Bailey; Mika [Midori Francis] has a special relationship with Owen [Kevin McKidd] and Teddy [Kim Raver] after what happened with Teddy. So I do feel like they’ve become enmeshed in our world and part of our family, and I can’t tell you how much fun they are to write for. Delightful to write for. They surprise me in every performance in such great ways.
One of those interns, Midori Francis (Mika Yasuda), is leaving the series this season. What can you say about her storyline and if her exit comes early or later on?
I don’t want to share anything specific because of spoilers — because I’m really, really happy with how it’s turned out. What I will say is that we really honor how we introduced her character and how far she’s come. Mika is such a fun character to write. She really delivers this season, and I think people will be really, really invested in her storyline. She and the rest of our cast and crew, I mean, I feel like I’m the luckiest person in this business. We’re all very collaborative. I had a castmember in here sitting at my desk last night looking at a scene. I’m just so thankful for them, and I really feel like once you are a part of the Grey’s Anatomy family — as we’ve seen, we just brought back a character after 17 years [Kali Rocha’s Dr. Sydney Heron] — just because you are not on the show in a regular way doesn’t mean that you won’t be coming and going.
Does that mean Grey Sloan will be getting a new intern at some point?
We introduce people new all the time. I’m not ready to introduce anyone new to replace my love for anyone!
Jake Borelli (Dr. Levi Schmitt) is also leaving after seven seasons. What kind of a Grey’s sendoff will Levi get?
The same kind of thing. If you just remember how we introduced Levi, he was a young intern in glasses who had no idea what he was doing. I think people will be happy to see that he’s really discovered himself in seven years, not just as a person but as a doctor, and you will really see that being honored.
And then, familiar faces return. You mentioned the return of Kali Rocha in the premiere. We also saw Grey’s favorite Jesse Williams and returning star Jason George, back after the end of Station 19. What do you have in store for Ben Warren, and how much more will we see of Jackson Avery?
With Jackson, we’ll be in the middle of the season and be like, “Is Jesse available?!” I would like to say everything is planned meticulously, but we sometimes just like to see where that Boston storyline goes with Meredith, Nick [Scott Speedman] and Catherine. But it was really fun to have Jesse, because we didn’t get to have him last season. There was such a Meredith-Catherine conflict, but due to availability and things like that, we weren’t able to bring Jesse in, and so I was really excited when I heard that he had an available window so we could see him weighing in on that conflict now. He’s looking at this as a personal betrayal of his friendship, not just a professional betrayal with Meredith. He’ll always be alive in our world.
And for Ben, I’m so excited to have Jason home. I say he’s “home,” because he started here first — even though he was the star of a big show for seven years. I don’t love a marriage more than I love Bailey and Ben’s marriage. And she’s the residency director now, so things are a little bit different. They’ve worked at the hospital together before but never with her as his direct boss. And there are going to be some feelings from the interns once he does land back at Grey Sloan. Is he a friend? Is he a spy? There will be some fun stuff there. He also has a special subset of skills that not everyone has that he’ll bring into his work as a surgeon. And it’s Ben Warren. He belongs at Grey Sloan. I’m excited to have him back.
When it comes to bringing people back, how do you make those decisions? Do people pitch these returns constantly in the writers room?
Absolutely. I’ll tell you, there are more ideas pitched to bring people back than actually happen. Everyone has their fierce love and loyalty for previous characters who have been on the show. We don’t want to do it too much, because it’s a large cast, and we’re telling stories for our current characters and also some characters are not alive – but that hasn’t stopped us before! But it depends on the timing and if that person is available. And even if it’s a character from the past, that story has to move our current character’s stories forward. So it’s a tricky dance. When we can, we make it work. But we can’t do it too much, because I like to keep it really special and surprising.
But yes, there will always be someone who is like, “What about Addison [Kate Walsh] in this episode!” She is such a treat to have. It depends, are we telling a big Amelia story and could someone from the Shepherd family come back? If we’re telling a Bailey or Richard [James Pickens Jr.] story, that’s when we look at people like Addison. Or if we’re telling a Meredith story, Jackson. We try to spread it around and keep fans on their toes so we can surprise them with appearances.
You mentioned how Bailey and Ben are a solid couple. I’m curious how you view Nick and Meredith. Nick isn’t in the premiere, but they had their happy ending with the season 20 finale. Do you now view them as this safe couple on the road to happily ever after, or will that road still be twisty and bumpy?
I view them on a safe road to happily ever after right now. (Laughs.) Meredith has come a long way in her relationships, and clearly, he loves her, despite her lovable flaws. But she just made a commitment to him at the end of last season, and I think she’s going to try to hold that as long as she can. He kind of put it all out there for her in the finale, and she said she was going to try. So, I believe that if Meredith says she’s going to try, she’s going to try.
Was the plan always to have Scott Speedman stay on for this long, or did it evolve as you saw their chemistry and story evolve?
It evolved. They had instant chemistry the very first time we saw them in season 14, but he was written as a guest star. It was always in the back of our minds. I wasn’t in charge at the time, but when I saw him in that episode I was like, “Oh my God, that’s Ben from Felicity, and he has instant chemistry with Meredith, why isn’t he on the show?” (Laughs.) He was so good, and he brought out this lightness in her, even in that first episode, that was kind of mesmerizing. So we talked about it for a couple of years and a few years after that. And the timing was never right based on where Meredith’s story was. And then we got to a point where we pitched it again in the writers room, and Krista [Vernoff] said, “Alright let me think about it.” And then she came in and said, “Alright, I’m making a call.”
The goal, then, when you brought him on was that it would be an arc?
Yes, and it would surprise Meredith, like she wasn’t expecting to see him.
In recent seasons, Grey’s has taken on the healthcare effects from COVID and the overturning of Roe v. Wade with powerful storylines. I read that climate change is your next hot-button topic, and we saw a little of that in the premiere from Link (Chris Carmack). Is that a big theme this season?
It’s one of them. We have a couple that we tell in different episodes. But obviously, we’re experiencing climate change so much in L.A. that it’s really been a hot topic in the writers room — no pun intended!
It’s something that’s really relevant in the medical field right now. A lot of hospitals are reevaluating how they do things, because it’s come to our attention that hospitals, especially surgical floors, contribute a lot to the carbon emission of the world. The anesthesia gases and things like that. There are a lot of movements going forward about, how do we look at that? How do hospitals do their part?
The topics that we tackle are relevant to the medical field. There are some stories that come in that are not as pertinent, but we’re really looking at things from the doctors’ point of view and the healthcare point of view. We did COVID from the doctors’ point of view, and we did reproductive rights from the doctors’ point of view. So when we look at topics to explore, that’s always where we’re looking: What’s affecting medical care right now, what’s affecting people who work at hospitals? We’re not wanting to make any overt statements on either side of any aisle, we just want to highlight what our medical field is going through right now.
Because it’s an election year, so many of these topics are top of mind for viewers. Fall TV launches close to the election. Did that impact any storylines, or does it just make more of this in the ether?
I think it’s made more of it in the ether. We’re very careful in what we put on television. We’re very mindful that all our viewers have different affiliations, perspectives and opinions. We’re story first. And we go creative first. And if there’s anything that we can educate on, we educate. But it’s not our job to tell people what to think. We just want to educate and show and be mindful.
Related to a hot topic or not, was there a big debate in the writers room about any episode this season?
Sometimes when we’re tackling topics, we’re like, “Should the patient die? Does that have more of an impact? Should the patient not die, does that have more of an impact?” Those are the debates that we get in. But we usually discuss and discuss and discuss in a very calm, controlled manner and take everyone’s point of view in. I’d like to say we have rip-roaring debates, but everyone is always respectful, and we bring in experts so it’s not just up to us.
Is there a ripped-from-the-headlines story this season you could tease? Or on the flip, something you couldn’t believe came from a real story?
We’ll always shock and surprise. We have the quirky medical stories, but then we have the unbelievable, insane traumas where you’ll be like, “Oh my God, did you see what they did?”
You’ve been on Grey’s since season three. How do you feel about the longevity of the show? And, how long do you think Grey’s will go on?
I will go until they tell me to put my pencil down. I clearly love this show and haven’t left yet, and I feel like, as long as Shonda and ABC want us to keep going, I’m here for it. I feel like there are always new stories to tell. Medicine and how people doctor change every year. I also think people are constantly finding new ways to injure themselves and get themselves sick. There are always quirky medical stories to go around. And the new cast has brought in fresh faces and perspectives. So I think people still want to watch us, and there’s something to be said that we’re really making history. People want to see how that pans out.
You are still the longest-running primetime medical drama on TV and Thursday night appointment TV, where you pull in solid ratings. But the show also has a new streaming life on Netflix and Hulu, reaching the TikTok generation. How does that influence the types of stories you tell and, what surprises you about what trends or goes viral with the younger viewers?
Now that we’ve seen what kind of things trend and go viral, there will be a moment in the writers room where we’ll go, “This is going to go viral.” We’ve gotten pretty good at predicting it. Like, the slap. When we shot it, we knew it was the promo, and the meme that would be on Twitter or X. Depending on how Meredith or Bailey deliver a performance, we will know if it’s going in the history of the Meredith-Bailey memes. We’re always trying to find those moments — the new “vajayjay” or “seriously” — what that word for the new generation is.
I’m just so grateful that, even though this premiered 21 years ago, people are still discovering it. My nieces are in their 20s and my nephews are in high school, and their friends are watching it. It holds up. There’s something so universal about being in your 20s and starting out in the world and not knowing what you’re doing. You’re still finding love and finding friendship, and I don’t think that will ever get old. Those original interns really suck you in. And it’s a doctor show, too. The stakes are life and death, what’s stakes-ier than that?
And, where we really think about our younger viewers is in making sure that we’re super accurate in public health messages. We’ve always been responsible for a lot of public health, but we have learned through TikTok that people really do take seriously what they see on Grey’s Anatomy as fact when it comes to medical care, especially with young people. That’s where we’ll ask, “Is this 100 percent correct? If you are 15, how do you perceive this?” That stuff we’re really careful on, particularly with COVID, reproductive rights and things like that.
And, of course, with who is sleeping together in the hospital closets.
(Laughs.) Yes. More interns sleep together in the closet than attendings!
Grey’s Anatomy season 21 releases new episodes Thursdays at 10 p.m. on ABC, streaming on Hulu.
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