'It's shaky ground as an actor': Joaquin Phoenix charts an unpredictable path as 'Joker'

TORONTO Its no laughing matter: Like many people his age, Joaquin Phoenix has come to the conclusion that his comic book collection is nogold mine.

I'm disappointed that my comics aren't more valuable, says Phoenix, 44, who still has some pretty choice issues, including Wolverines first appearance. When you're a kid, a hundred bucks is like a lot, right? I remember reading comics, being so excited: Oh, man, it's going to be worth 150 bucks! And then you're an adult with a mortgage and you realize that all of your comics, it doesn't amount to much.

The superheroes of his childhood have become big business in Hollywood, though Phoenix is going in a very different direction with a fabled comic icon.Director Todd Phillips keenly anticipated psychological thriller Joker (in theaters Friday) imagines that a real-world scenario gives rise to the legendary Batman villain. That antagonist comes in the form of Arthur Fleck (Phoenix), a troubled Gotham City clown and stand-up comedian mocked and bullied for his unusual behavior and otherworldly cackle.

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Phoenix is the latest in a long line of movie Jokers, joining the ranks of Jack Nicholson (1989s Batman), Heath Ledger (2008s The Dark Knight) and Jared Leto (2016s Suicide Squad). But he does find the appeal of the anarchic antagonist for actors and pop culture fans alike curious overall.

I wonder if it's that they project their own feelings on the character because in some ways he's a blank slate, says Phoenix, breaking into a gigantic bottle of water while relaxing in an outdoor hotel bar area. Most of these villains and heroes, their motivations are so clearly defined. Maybe there's something enjoyable about a character in which we don't really know what motivates him.

Ledger posthumously won an Academy Award for his Joker, and Phoenix could make it two-for-two for the bad guy at the Oscars.A three-time nominee, hes already considered overdue for golden glory, critical acclaim for his performance is boosting awareness, and he "most definitely will be in the mix," says Fandango.com managing editor Erik Davis.

"(Oscar) voters love a juicy, no-holds-barred performance, he says. "And while Phoenixs take is tough to watch and makes you uncomfortable at times, those are often the most powerful and lasting performances because they are the ones that stick with you long after leaving the theater."

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The road to becoming Joker, while admittedly energizing, wasnt exactly a cakewalk, Phoenix says. Because theres limitless potential for the character, he collaborated with Phillips constantly about everything from Arthurs clownish look to his internal persona. As Joker evolved, so did Phoenixs portrayal.

When we were prepping for it, I felt very frustrated because I couldn't lock on anything that felt like a foundation for the character, Phoenix says. And at some point, I realized that was the (expletive) point. He was unstable.

It's shaky ground as an actor. I enjoy not knowing precisely what a character may do, but you want to have like a couple moments that you feel solid about. And that never really happened, he adds. We just became very comfortable with not knowing.

There was a lot of experimentation. Phoenix liked the idea of Arthur having a distinctive laugh a Joker trademark that was almost painful. And as Arthur embraces more of a darker side, his movements become more graceful: He dances down a steep stairway in one scene, in garish makeup and wardrobe, and one key sequence involved Phoenix improvising a bathroom ballet afterArthurs violent battle with subway bullies, the turning point that leads him down an unfortunate path.

It's really the emergence of Joker. It's that part of Arthur that is coming to the forefront, Phoenix says. I remember the next day saying, What the (expletive) did we do yesterday? Is that going towork? And Todd said, I don't know, right? It's like interpretive dance in a Joker movie.

Phillips wanted Arthur to look malnourished and thin and hungry, so Phoenix lost 52 pounds for the role. He had done it before (for 2012s The Master) but in all honesty, I didnt want to do it again, says the actor, who worked with the same nutritionist. It's a horrible, brutal diet but you get all the vitamins and minerals, so you're like safe. It's grotesque.(His daily menu included apples, lettuce and steamed green beans.)

Thats what you get when Phoenix plays the Joker, though. He just takes things and dials things up to 12, Phillips says. Great actors bring humanity even when they're playing inhuman people, and that's not just exclusive to Joaquin, but it's why certain people are actors and certain people are great actors. They make you feel for them even when you're not supposed to.

The joke of the movie is we make you feel for (Arthur) for a long part. The joke is on the audience, so to speak, to the point where you're like, 'I felt for this guy and he's a lunatic.'

But playing such a dark and twisted role never affected Phoenix in a negative way psychologically.

As humans, we're so malleable it's probably how we survive and adjust and adapt, he says. When making a movie, my whole life changes. I go to a new city, I'm living in a new place. I don't have photos from home or anything that reminds me of my life.

I don't know that you know how it changes you, or whether it does. But I certainly don't have any great actor stories about having nightmares or (stuff) like that. Honestly, I had so much fun making this.

Although he grew up loving comic books, Phoenix never thought about the fact that those characters have reached such highs in modern culture. He was a candidate for a hot minute to play Marvel's Doctor Strange a role that ultimately went to Benedict Cumberbatch and now that he has one comic book movie under his belt, hes not ruling out another.

Phillips has said that he doesnt see Joker connecting to any future films, although its retro vibe andthe appearance of the Wayne family in combination with Robert Pattinson assuming thecape and cowl as a young Caped Crusader in Matt Reeves The Batman (out June 25, 2021) have some fans swooning over a possiblereboot of an old rivalry.

Asked about a return, Phoenix seems more open than his director, wearing a smile that might not be Joker-esque yet is still slightly mischievous. Early on in the process of shooting, we talked about other stories and other possibilities but it's not really up to me. It was such a unique working experience with Todd and I didn't really want it to end. We'll see.

There has been nervousness leading up to the releaseof "Joker": Family members of victims in the 2012 movie theater mass shooting in Aurora, Colorado, wrote a letter to Warner Bros. raising concerns about copycats, and the Landmark theater chain is banning masks, face paint and costumes at screenings.

Phoenix understandsJoker isan outlierin its genre, leaningmore Taxi Driver with its themes of mental health, tribalism, class warfare, violence and societal toxicity than, say, Justice League.

When it comes to the movie'smessaging, Phoenix is appreciative that "Joker" isn't "didactic," letting moviegoers figure out what the movie says to them rather than a specific way to feel.

It presents a bunch of difficult scenarios and questions, and it challenges the audience to experience it however they want," Phoenix says. "Everyone I talk to seems to have a different reading: It could be interpreted in a number of different ways and so it's almost interactive. I really love that.

This article originally appeared on USA TODAY: 'Joker' Joaquin Phoenix had a love/hate relationship with the role