How did Justin Welby's much-hyped grilling of Tony Blair fail to mention the word 'morality'?

Justin Welby’s highly anticipated interview Sir Tony Blair finally hit the airwaves this afternoon, in the third edition of The Archbishop Interviews on Radio 4. Much was made in advance about the idea of the former prime minister being grilled by the Archbishop of Canterbury on the subject of morality; especially with the illegal invasion of a sovereign nation currently bringing the world to the brink of Armageddon. But perhaps unfortunately for anyone hoping for critical comparisons to be made between Iraq and Ukraine, the interview was conducted just prior to Putin’s invasion, so Sir Tony’s responses were confined to the theoretical.

“You take the situation in Ukraine,” he said at one point. “You can say it doesn’t matter to people in Britain whether Ukraine is taken over by Russia tomorrow or not, in their immediate lives. But I think that in the long term, it’s massively contrary to our interests to have a country, an independent sovereign country on the doorstep of Europe, essentially invaded and taken over.”

Well, it’s probably fair to say he underestimated the strength of the international response to the invasion. With regard to Putin being isolated and surrounded by people afraid to challenge him, however, he did agree – in a manner that will doubtless strike some as ironic --– that it’s important to be “surrounded by people who are prepared to tell you they disagree with you.”

The early parts of the conversation focused largely on how Sir Tony’s faith had influenced his time in politics – despite New Labour’s famous “We don’t do religion” dictum. Blair admitted it had helped build bridges in negotiations for the Good Friday Agreement, even with the “bitterly sectarian” Revd Ian Paisley. “He knew that I had become a Catholic. I mean, it wouldn’t have been great if I’d started out as one.”

On the subject of the Iraq War, Sir Tony was robust in his defence of the decisions he took as prime minister, though for once he admitted the possibility that he might have been wrong.

“Post-9/11, I decided we had to be with America in this moment. You know, the whole issue to do with the use of chemical, biological weapons, development of nuclear weapons and so on. We had to take a strong, strong stand on it. Now, I may have been wrong, but taking those decisions, I had to do what I thought was the right thing.”

He added that, “after leaving office, and as I've grown older, I'm constantly amazed by how much I don't know,” citing one of his heroes, Roy Jenkins, who he once caught staring into the distance just before going on air for Any Questions. “Roy, what are you thinking about?” he asked. “I'm just contemplating the vast expanses of my own ignorance,” replied Jenkins.

Overall, the interview wasn’t so much an exchange of views in the manner of Welby’s two previous encounters (with novelist Elif Shafak and psychologist Susan Blackmore). It was more of a straight question and answer session. The Archbishop asked his polite, thoughtful questions, and Sir Tony replied where he could, and sidestepped skilfully where he couldn’t.

Even so, there were some enquiries that seemed sharp edged, such as when Welby, talking about political decision-making, cited “the war in Iraq contributing one way or another to the evisceration of the Christian community in Iraq. So many deaths. What’s going on inside you?”

Unsurprisingly, Sir Tony wriggled away from that specific.

As for the much-anticipated morality – the word didn’t crop up once. The closest we got was in the closing moments when the archbishop asked another vaguely pointed question: “Can someone in politics admit that they got things wrong? Can they seek forgiveness? Where do you find forgiveness for guilt?”

Sir Tony had a ready answer about the importance of being prepared to acknowledge when you’re wrong – and that, in his opinion, “in politics, you can do that”.

The real problem of politics, he explained, “is that in a world that is very complex, people search for simplicity,” before adding “the politicians you really shouldn’t trust are the people that get up and tell you the simple slogans.”

Not that he could ever be accused of that.