Penelope Spheeris on the Rise (and Return!) of 'The Decline of Western Civilization', the Greatest Rock-Doc Series Ever
Penelope Spheeris with the members of Poison, one of the subjects of ‘The Decline of Western Civilization Part II: The Metal Years’ (Photo: Shout! Factory)
Penelope Spheeris on Returning to ‘The Decline of Western Civilization,’ the Greatest Rock-Doc Series of All Time
There’s never been a film series quite as daring, as bedeviling, or as sporadically ridiculous as the Decline of Western Civilization trilogy. Filmed by director Penelope Spheeris (Wayne’s World) over the course of more than 20 years, the Decline films find Spheeris embedding herself within three very different Los Angeles hard-rock subcultures, whose inhabitants she treats with both incredulous curiosity and marrow-deep empathy. These are Spheeris’ people — sweet-natured outcasts, starry-eyed strivers, and the occasional ego-checked superstar — and together, they help make Decline the greatest rock-doc series ever made.
The first Decline, released in 1981, chronicles L.A.’ sneering, spittle-ridden underground punk scene, with such artists as X, the Germs, and Fear; during one of its first screenings, attendees got so rowdy, the L.A. police shut down Hollywood Boulevard. Seven years later, Spheeris returned with The Decline of Western Civilization Part II: The Metal Years, in which she chronicled the hair-indebted (and occasionally air-headed) denizens of the Sunset Strip metal scene (including Poison and Faster Pussycat), contrasting their lives with those of such (relatively) saner semi-elder statesmen as Ozzy Osbourne and Aerosmith’s Steven Tyler. Finally, in 1998′s heartbreaking Part III, Spheeris spent time among L.A.’s homeless squatter-punk teens, many of whom are kind-hearted cast-offs who’ve fled their unstable homes in search of a community — but who wind up addicted to drugs and surrounded by violence.
This week, all three films — which have been out of print and out of circulation for years — will be reissued in a new box set, featuring extended interview outtakes, concert performances, and all sorts of behind-the-scenes insights. Yahoo Movies caught up with Spheeris, 69, and daughter Anna Fox — who worked on the series and new set — to talk about revisiting the past, working with Ozzy and his ilk, and where the Decline series goes from here.
The Decline movies have been nearly impossible to track down for the last few years. Why did it take so long to get them a proper DVD release?
Spheeris: Well, it’s my fault. Honestly, it’s been a real burden these last 20 years. When I did Decline III, I tried to get all three out, but I had [rights issues], so I didn’t. But, really, I think it was [held back by my] fear of having to look back on my life [laughs].
So how hard was it to look back at all of this footage and re-watch these interviews?
Fox: She hated it [laughs]. I made her do it.
Spheeris: I really didn’t want to do it. It was horrible. You know when you go to the shrink, and it takes like an hour, and you sit there talking about all of this s— that makes you feel better? Well, this was like a year and a half of being at the shrink. I don’t mean to be complaining, but it’s like having your life flash before you.
Decline II is probably the best-known of the series, in part because it features dozens of metal musicians — some huge, some never heard from again — drinking, boasting, and generally letting their egos run amok. Were the subjects upset after the movie came out?
Spheeris: I can understand why some of the players in the movie went through a period of time where they regretted saying some of the things they said, you know? But I think Anna’s more in touch with these people than me.
Fox: I think that, once these people made it through not liking how they presented themselves, they’ve now embraced it as part of where they come from, which is what happens when we get older.
Spheeris: We’ve heard there was a time when some of the guys in Odin and [W.A.S.P. bassist] Chris Holmes were pissed that they said what they said and did what they did, and that it was on film. But when I heard these things I also heard — and this is recently — is that they’re on the other side. They did what Jim Morrison said: They broke on through to the other side, and now they’re okay with it.
The scene in which Holmes sits in a pool and pours bottles of vodka down his throat — while his bemused mother helplessly looks on nearby — is one of the most famous rock-doc moments ever recorded. What are your memories of filming it?
Spheeris: I didn’t think we’d gotten it. I thought, “This is a definite reshoot.” I remember taking our cameraman, Jeff Zimmerman, behind the tree, and saying, “Jeff, what are we gonna do, man? This guy just blew four rolls of film.” And so I was stuck with what I had, and I even asked [producers Jonathan Dayton and Valerie Faris], “Well, maybe we can reshoot it?” And they said, “We don’t have the money to reshoot it. Figure it out.”
Watch the vodka scene with Chris Holmes below:
So I edited the scene, and I put it in the movie, and I didn’t really realize the impact of it until years later. I think any parent can relate to [that scene], and I think any kid with any consciousness can relate to it, which is why I think it has the impact that it does. And honestly, it was just a gift from God — and I’m not even religious. It just happened, you know? It’s the same as when I got the job to do Wayne’s World, you know? It just happened. And people remember that scene more than any in the movie, but for me, the freaky part is: I thought I didn’t get it.
Did you ever hear from him after the movie came out?
Spheeris: I remember one night being at a heavy metal show out in the Valley at this really big, spread-out bar. I’ve forgotten the name of it now — there were so many of them. I heard somebody yelling at me across the club, and it was Chris; he’s about 10 feet tall, so you could see him in the crowd. And he’s yelling, “Hey! You need to pay me for the f—ing movie!” And he explained that he never got paid, and I said, “Actually, Chris, you did get paid — just like everybody else did. Same amount. You may not remember it, but you did get paid.” And that was it. I don’t know. I’ve drank too much at times and not remembered s—, too.
Whose idea was it to shoot on Kiss’ Paul Stanley as he was laying on a bed, surrounded by giggly models?
Spheeris: I asked [the subjects] how they wanted to be [filmed], and Paul said he wanted to be filmed in bed with a bunch of girls. So I said, “Okay, come on down. We’ll bring the girls.” We got the bed all fluffed up, and he brings me aside and he goes, “Penelope, I don’t think these girls are good-looking enough.” And I’m like, “Well, that’s all we got, man. We don’t got a lot of money here.” And he goes, “Hold on a minute,” and he calls the Playboy mansion. And he has three girls come over from the Playboy mansion.
Spheeris and Motörhead frontman Lemmy, one of the subjects of ‘The Decline of Western Civilization Part II: The Metal Years’ (Photo: Shout! Factory)
There’s a lot of misogynistic behavior on display in Decline II. Being a woman, did you face any resistance from the band members?
Spheeris: That’s a fair question, and yes, one would deduct that when looking at the [environment]. However, I would say that doing the first Decline gave me a bit of credibility. And having done a long list of music videos over the years, I think they trusted me.
I’ll tell you the weirdest part about being a woman while shooting [Part II]: The girls all around that were just on the scene — they were so beautiful and so done up, and I always just felt ugly [laughs]. I didn’t have time to spruce it up, like they do. I think being the not-so-attractive girl around all those gorgeous women was the hardest part for me. The guys never treated me bad, you know? But they had too many beautiful women to go after than to even bother with me.
Are you surprised that many of the subjects of Decline II — including Ozzy Osbourne, Gene Simmons, Steven Tyler, and Poison’s Bret Michaels — went on to become reality-TV stars?
Spheeris: It makes total sense. I did a movie with Sharon and Ozzy, We Sold Our Souls for Rock ’n Roll, [for which] I went out and shot the Ozzfest. And between Ozzy’s scene in Decline II and We Sold our Souls for Rock N’ Roll, I could actually see, on Sharon’s face, the birth of The Osbournes. It came across like a neon light across her forehead.
I’d always thought Ozzy was funny. I even tried to do a comedy with him in the late ’80s with this producer named David Begelman. It was called Shooting Stars. We all met, and afterward David tells me privately, “I don’t think Ozzy’s funny.” I was like, “Are you out of your mind? This guy’s funny!” This was way before Wayne’s World, so I didn’t have any comedy proof to back me up. Anyway, David Begelman committed suicide in a hotel in Century City [in 1995]. And now, whenever I see Ozzy, he tells me [in Ozzy voice]: “Penelope, how come that producer blew his brains out when we couldn’t do that movie with him?” And I’m like, “Ozzy, that’s not why he did it.”
Anna Fox — who helped produce the new ‘Decline’ box set — with her mother, director Penelope Spheeris (Photo: Suzanne Allison)
Let’s jump back a bit, to the first Decline. Were the band members at all hesitant about having you come and film them?
Spheeris: No, because nobody else was doing it. It wasn’t like they had five people asking them to be in a movie or on a TV show — it was totally ignored. MTV hadn’t been born yet.
One of that film’s standout scenes finds you in the kitchen with the late Germs frontman Darby Crash, who’s talking casually about his on-stage injuries while making eggs in his apartment. Was that the first time you’d met him?
Spheeris: I knew Darby from being around the scene. It was a pretty small scene — there weren’t all that many people going to the shows back then. [But] I’d never been to his apartment before we filmed there. I wanted him to be in a comfortable place when we shot him, so that he could be as honest as possible. I remember when I said, “Let’s just shoot in your apartment. I’ll be over in the morning.” He said, “Will you bring some stuff for breakfast?” I said, “Sure, if you’ll cook it.”
Watch the scene with Darby Crash:
Did he ever see the footage before he died in 1980?
Spheeris: He died around the same time as [John Lennon]. I got a call in the middle of the night saying Darby had died, and I went to my mom’s house the next day — because whenever I got freaked out about something, I went to my mom’s house, and she’d make me some biscuits and gravy. And I remember sitting there learning that John Lennon had just gotten shot. So I don’t think Darby saw the film. It was a really difficult time.
Watch part of Spheeris’ interview with Darby Crash below:
The last scene from the film, in which a fight breaks out during a Fear concert, is remarkably tense.
Spheeris: It was pretty weird. I mean it wasn’t that common that there would be someone jumping out of the audience onto the stage and having a fight. If there were fights, they would usually be in the audience. Not in the pit: The pit’s not a fight area. It’s basically a dance area. But out in the parking lot, or out in the back of the ballroom — yeah, there’d be a fistfight. But not on stage. And I don’t know if they did it for the cameras, and I shouldn’t say I lucked out. But it is an exciting piece of footage.
A group of homeless L.A. teens in ‘The Decline of Western Civilization Part III’ (Photo: Shout! Factory)
For a lot of fans, the most exciting part of the Decline set is Part III, which documents homeless squatter-punks dealing with violence, addiction, and death. The movie never got a proper release, and 15 years after you filmed it, it’s absolutely wrenching to watch now. Are you still in contact with any of its subjects?
Spheeris: Of all my movies that I’ve ever done, that’s my favorite, and [those kids are] the people we stayed in touch with the most. Matter of fact: Do you remember, when I was interviewing these three guys standing by a fence, and there’s an Asian guy with some dentures around his neck? That’s my boyfriend of 18 years. He was homeless for 10 years before he was my boyfriend.
Unfortunately, a lot of [the subjects] are not [okay]. Anna’s in touch with a lot of them. The big guy who called himself “Hamburger” — he passed away of a heroin overdose about 10 years ago. And as you saw from the film, Squid passed away. And the guy Sage, with the tattoos on his face, is gone as well. There’s quite a few of them.
I can only imagine how frustrating it’s been for you to have the movie remain on the shelf for so long.
Spheeris: You use the word “frustrating,” I use the word “heartbreaking,” because I do love the movie so much. But then again, that’s why I have to love and thank my daughter, because now people will get to see it. And I really want people to see that movie, because I think it makes a statement that, if we listen to it, we might want to take some action, and do something about how children are treated by their parents, and how they’re cast out into the world and become homeless. I got my license to become a foster parent as a result of working on that film. I felt like, “Okay, I can make a film about it, and then what — turn my back on it? No. I’ve got to do something.” [And] I’ve had five foster children so far.
Now that you’ve finally gotten these first three films a proper release, have you thought about a Part IV?
Spheeris: Oh, yeah. Let’s just say [with] my darling daughter — who has a lot more inspiration and creativity going than me at this point in my life — we’ve got it going. So [Part IV] is already started. But I would prefer that I don’t say the subject matter. We’ve got a few interviews [in the can] already. There’s no stopping the Decline.
Watch a scene from ‘The Decline of Western Civilization Part III’ below:
